0096 | November 04, 2019
1619:
What Troubles, What Remains?
Even though the country’s racist history still troubles the present, there are reasons to look up. What can we take away from @NYTimes 1619 project?
| C.T. WEBB: 00:19 | [music] Good afternoon, good morning or good evening and welcome to The American Age podcast. This is your host C. Travis Webb, editor at The American Age. And I am speaking to you from unbelievably hot Southern California. I mean it’s really hot. It was in the 90s a couple of days ago and it’s stayed consistently warm and the whole state’s on fire. So anyway, yeah. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 00:44 | Hi, this is Stephen G. Fullwood. I’m the co-founder of the Nomadic Archivist Project and I [laughter] just came back from Miami yesterday where it was 88 degrees. And I’m in Harlem and it is dreary outside, rainy, overcast. I really generally love these days. And I don’t not not love it now but it’s just a interesting sort of juxtaposition of temperatures and energies and so I’m just trying to find my footing here. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:14 | And I’m Seph Rodney. I’m a senior editor at the Hyperallergic Blog/ Magazine and recent author of a book published by Routledge press. The book is entitled ‘The Personalization of the Museum Visit.’ And I was just in Mississippi from, I think it was – yes, Wednesday through Friday and it was also really warm there. It’s more seasonable than I think what you both experienced but it was a transition coming back here because Mississippi is really flat. At least, Jackson is really flat and open and it’s really sparsely populated at least in the downtown. So it always feels like when I fly back to New York from that place like I’m coming back into sort of– I’m flying back into the scene of Blade Runner. |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:16 | I was about to interject and say Blade Runner when you were pausing because that’s my exact feeling as well. Yeah. So this is to remind our listeners that we practice a form of what we like to call intellectual intimacy which is giving each other the space and time to figure out things out loud and together. And a brief announcement that our contributor, Sarah Bond, won’t be with us today or in the future. So just a number of issues keep her from joining us regularly. So we definitely wish her well. And Sarah we hardly knew you. So, hopefully, things are well with her and her projects continue. She does a lot of good work. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 03:02 | Yeah. She does. |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:04 | And this is our wrap-up episode of the 1619 Project. And so Stephen, Seph– I mean Seph, you were just saying right before we were getting on that it was just a heavy lifting. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 03:20 | Yeah. Mm-hmm. |
| S. RODNEY: 03:21 | It was. It was. And what it did was going through this project– and I’m glad that we decided to do this because it gave me the opportunity to read everything in the 1619 New York Times Magazine. But ruminating on it made me think of something I’d written. I’m going to actually check the date now on my phone. I’d written this– oh, yes, July– oh! July of last year was when it was published. I’d written a piece that has to do with the Center for Art and Public Exchange initiative at The Mississippi Museum of Art talking about how it’s CAPE project – CAPE for short – was moving towards centering the museum on issues of social equity and social justice. And CAPE initiative specifically allocated funds for acquiring work and creating public programs that would enable the museum to reach those goals. I’d written about this project – the CAPE project – in the context of visiting the Mississippi Civil Rights Museum which I describe to people as a harrowing experience. And it was. And I want to just read what I’d written then which is what I was forced to conclude having visited the museum and having walked there from the Mississippi Museum of Art, and in the middle of the day in Jackson, Mississippi where apparently no one walks. It was incredibly desolate, strange, fay experience. |
| S. RODNEY: 05:10 | This is what I wrote. Or this is one of the paragraphs from what I wrote. I did return. I spent two hours more reading in awe and dismay about a concerted campaign undertaken by the majority of the white population that used every possible tool of social and governmental power to keep black people from the freedoms and rights so sensibly held out to them by the constitution. Whites systematically use taxes, education policy, housing policy, voter registration, district gerrymandering, boycotts, public transportation, the police force, all the levers of the jurisprudential complex to essentially tell blacks, “Stay in your place. The best of you will never be equal to the least of us.” More than that, the actions of the Ku Klux Klan and white citizen councils which included car bombings, church burnings, and targeted assassinations added teeth to this warning. They were saying, “If you do not stay in your place, we will maim and kill you.” And there’s a way in which the 1619 Project takes that encapsulation and stretches it out both across the span of history to say, “Here is how it happened systematically,” but also stretches it out thematically, right? So it stretches it through these cultural and social prisms. So through violence, through capitalism, [inaudible] slavery, Wall Street, acquiring wealth without work, health care, urban planning, regional politics, music, food, the criminal justice system. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:06 | So basically, the 1619 Project tells me that the story of Mississippi, civil rights movement in the south from the ’50s to the ’70s really is at the heart of everything that is the United States of America. That story is the American story. That is the fundamental one. That’s my thoughts on the project. |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:38 | I have a response but I’d like maybe to give Stephen space to respond. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 07:42 | No, go ahead and respond to it. I’m actually writing up something up right now. |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:46 | So I’m with you all the way to the end and probably even at the end I do agree. I mean we’ve talked about this many, many, many times that defining whiteness in America has been an exercise executed with blood. Meaning that we’ve defined whiteness with bloody lines. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 08:17 | And continues to be. |
| C.T. WEBB: 08:18 | Okay. So that’s where– and I can tell Stephen was intentionally provoking in saying that. So I don’t think– I think if that’s how we feel then we should shut down the podcast and go home. I think if we feel like actually that there has not been any movement, and that– no. No. But when you say something like, “And continues to be,” so forcefully without any qualification or context, if we don’t offer context for all of the variety of kids that got on those buses and rode through the south and got their teeth knocked in, and to actually bring about real substantive, actual change to a country whose history – as every country’s history is – bloody, and terrible, and awful. No country is excepted from that. Not one. No people, no tribe, no place, no moment in time is excepted from boundaries being drawn with violence. And we are absolutely a part of that and I would reject that, and I would look for a way forward. But if we say this is our history. What are we doing? What are we doing? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 09:57 | I think that– so it’s not an either/or for me, Travis. It’s a declaration of what continues to happen. Obviously, it doesn’t wipe out what people continue to do. Absolutely, this podcast is a part of that gesture. So when I’m watching– you can use Trump as an example. The ways in which people support Trump and how they continue to define whiteness as pure. The rise in the right– the visual rise in the right because of the internet, because we’re seeing it more, and people making themselves more vocal with it. I know that there is progression because I’m not enslaved. So I’d look at it similar in the way that [Baldwin?] looks at it. I think that we need to tell the truth to shame the devil. We continue to march on because I don’t really think that we have any other choice. We want to live. Everybody wants to live. We just have to work our ways through these terrible ideas of what humans are [laughter], what we’ve chosen to be. So I don’t think that things are hopeless– |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:06 | [crosstalk] ideas– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:06 | [crosstalk] |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:07 | I’m sorry. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:08 | No, it’s okay. |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:08 | I’m sorry. I’m sorry. No. No. Go ahead. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:08 | Okay. I don’t think that those– if I say that certain white people– I’ll give you that. Certain white folks continue to invest in whiteness because– |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:24 | And so do black folks. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:24 | [crosstalk]. Well, listen. I’m not finished. |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:25 | Black folks invest in it too. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:26 | I’m not finished. I’m not finished. But I think it’s a different thing though and I’ve always thought it was a different thing. And I think it’s this, I wouldn’t be black if you weren’t white. |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:37 | That’s correct. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:37 | Right? We’ve talked about that. And I also think– |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:39 | Yeah. And vice versa. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:41 | [laughter] What I was going to say was whiteness wouldn’t bother me so much if it weren’t so imposing. I don’t think I’m imposing blackness on anyone. I don’t. It’s a personal thing. And also feel like there’s a declaration in which– I’ll bring it back to 1619. I was thinking about how 1619 could be a really wonderful project added to a bunch of other projects around teaching people these things. But how do we get it to people who really need to hear this kind of stuff, right? |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:15 | You don’t feel like whiteness is imposed on me because I fucking do. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:19 | Oh, no. No. I didn’t say that. I was talking about me. I said I wasn’t imposing blackness on you. |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:24 | But when you say it in that way to give it a special category, it’s– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:28 | Oh, I kind of get what you mean. Okay. |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:29 | –as if– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:30 | Oh, no I think– |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:31 | –to take a burden onto oneself that is unique. And I actually think that the burden of whiteness is borne by the entire fucking country. I don’t care what color or gender you are. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:45 | I agree with that. No, I agree with that. I completely agree with that because it’s suffocating– |
| S. RODNEY: 12:50 | I do too. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:50 | –because I can’t wait to talk about gender as it relates to race [laughter], right. I can’t wait. Because– |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:56 | That’s coming up, by the way, everyone. That’s– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 12:58 | –I think that largely if we take it through our podcast, we’re talking about a freedom project here, right? This idea of trying to understand these things that stop us from being our full selves, right? And stop people from talking to each other– |
| C.T. WEBB: 13:10 | That’s well-said. I agree. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 13:12 | –, from really embracing and being large. I think with 1619 I was like, “I just want to go out and talk with people all the time. I could take it economically, we could take it from the plantation. We can talk about all these things. How do people become interested in something they feel is going to flip or twist or change or fundamentally really move them from one mindset to another around, “This is America. This is the actual America. We can do so much better.” Because the freedom project is really rooted in the slavery experience. There’s a gentleman who gave Schaumburg– his name is Sid Lapidus. He gave a series of books, rare books; and a series of manuscripts to the Schaumburg and now there’s this thing called the Sid Lapidus Slavery Center. Well, initially, he told me personally, because I actually worked with that collection that his idea was that he was interested in freedom as an idea and went to Thomas Paine and found that the slavery project was a much more robust and a much more engaged experience when dealing with this notion of freedom. And so that begot his collection he’s got collections at Princeton, Schaumburg, and other places as well. So when we– I love this idea of trying to work through these really difficult concepts that we’ve sometimes lazily relied upon for identity. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:39 | So but yeah, I do think white is an imposition. I think black can be an imposition if it doesn’t allow you freedom. So I’m not really so wedded to an artificial sensibility around blackness either. |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:53 | Yeah. I get that. I get that. |
| S. RODNEY: 14:54 | So I want to– sorry to interrupt, Stephen. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:57 | No [crosstalk]. |
| S. RODNEY: 14:57 | I want to just try to make sense of what we’ve just done. I think what I said was I propose that the 1619 Project is really sort of the look back over our collective shoulders at how the original sin of slavery, of treating black bodies as if they’re property has sort of worked its way through all levels of culture and societal structure in the United States of America. And Travis said, basically, he agrees with that but what he’s saying is– I think what you’re saying, Travis, is that you can’t leave– there are ellipses after that. You can’t leave the ‘And what we’ve done since then – some of us– |
| C.T. WEBB: 15:49 | That’s exactly right. |
| S. RODNEY: 15:49 | –is in a very principled, energetic and forthright w try to come with terms with that awful history and that premise to this nation. And actually the 1619 Project, I think in that vein, Travis, is evidence of us trying to do that work collectively. And this podcast is also evidence of us in serious good faith coming together and trying to do that work. Yeah. So I’m with you on that. I left out the ellipses. I just wanted to sort of get a sense of what this had done for me. And to that end, I just– I think it might be useful to just ask each of you, is there a particular essay or a particular passage that really stuck with you throughout this thing? |
| C.T. WEBB: 16:48 | Before we answer that can I succinctly respond to actually what you said? |
| S. RODNEY: 16:52 | Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 16:52 | The ellipsis is exactly right. The reason I probably think I’d actually jump in with that stuff as forcefully as I do is because I detect in myself and have throughout my life and also detect in others there is a deep pleasure in clearly demarcating a moral wrong and feeling like you stand on the other side. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:17 | Oh, no. Well, said. |
| S. RODNEY: 17:18 | That’s right. |
| C.T. WEBB: 17:19 | And it’s an actual feeling of pleasure. And I am not immune to that feeling of pleasure. And that pleasure seems to be the default pleasure in 2019 for dealing with these issues. And I’m enough of a stoic to be suspicious of our pleasures and I think there’s an indulgence in it that I would try to reject. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:47 | I– |
| S. RODNEY: 17:47 | That’s good. That’s good. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:47 | I agree with that and I feel that very strongly, personally. And also in addition to that, I also feel like that feels like a first step. It’s almost like you realize something’s the matter and then hopefully you don’t get stuck there. You actually move, and you educate, and you think more. And you actually don’t turn yourself into the point of reference. You decenter yourself in that argument and maybe you can see more of what’s in the [world?]. And so that’s a really lovely thing to say because it allows you space to be wrong, it allows you space to grow, and it also allows you the space to really think about how you think, right? Because if you’re always innocent– this is the innocence project that we were talking about. If you’re constantly thinking that you’re one that things are just happening upon you but that you don’t enact these things on others – whether directly or indirectly – that’s why I think we have a bunch of people who feel or don’t– they feel more than think about how they’re in the world. |
| C.T. WEBB: 18:54 | Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 18:54 | Which feeling is– that’s what you’re emotions are for and sometimes your feelings they shouldn’t be the last place you land when it comes to justice, not just for you but for other people. |
| C.T. WEBB: 19:09 | Right. So anyway, to return to Seph’s question which I think is a really good one. I’ll respond. Say that really got me and one of you probably will be a little faster with the author’s name. Was the one that we talked about last week on the spirometer. I mean I don’t know if we got into it in the podcast but I spent hours looking– because I felt like, “No, come on. The scientific community can’t be–” I have that optimist view of that stuff. And man, was I just flat wrong. Just flat wrong. I guess on the other side of it there are scientists of goodwill, there are projects that are saying, “We need to stop this. This is ridiculous. All we’re doing is reinforcing racial biases and giving them scientific underpinnings, and all the rest of this. So that was the most impactful for me. |
| S. RODNEY: 20:12 | Was that the one that was written by Linda Villarosa about myths of physical differences used to justify slavery? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:22 | I thought it was another one. |
| S. RODNEY: 20:23 | Yeah, I think it was. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:23 | Is that it? |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:23 | No, I think that was– is that it? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:25 | I thought it was another one on health as well with this woman talking about her son that she feared for her son. Yeah. Linda Villarosa was about the experiments on black bodies and not recognizing black pain for what it is, right? |
| S. RODNEY: 20:45 | Right. That’s right. That’s correct. Right. So which one was that? I want to find out because now I’m intrigued. And I think we ought to tell our listeners exactly– |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:56 | Lundi Bron? Is that the one? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:58 | It could be. |
| C.T. WEBB: 21:01 | No, I think actually maybe Seph is right. It might be the Villarosa one. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 21:04 | I thought there were two on health. Honestly. |
| C.T. WEBB: 21:08 | There– |
| S. RODNEY: 21:08 | No. Oh, wait. No, it was– wait, was it the one– oh, no it was the one where the woman was with her two-year-old and he was trying to put something in his mouth. |
| C.T. WEBB: 21:22 | No. So there was that one but no, Seph, Your initial intuition is correct. It was the Villarosa. I actually found it. Evan Cartwright’s footprint remains in current medical practice. [crosstalk] the statue. Pulling down his statue. So anyway that’s what it was. Yeah. Thank you for that. |
| S. RODNEY: 21:40 | Right. So that’s the essay where she says towards the end, “Rather than conceptualizing race as a risk factor that predicts disease or disability because of a fixed susceptibility conceived on shaky ground centuries ago, we would do better to understand race as a proxy for bias, disadvantage, and ill-treatment. |
| C.T. WEBB: 22:00 | Yeah. It’s a shorthand. It’s a shorthand for all kinds of dumb shit. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 22:05 | Yeah. Uh! Goodness, gracious. |
| S. RODNEY: 22:06 | How about you Stephen? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 22:07 | So to respond to Travis very quickly when he said, “It’s still in operation I can’t believe it.” My smugness was like, “Yeah [laughter]. Yeah, motherfucker. Yeah.” |
| C.T. WEBB: 22:19 | Where have you been? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 22:20 | Right. But it’s the smugness that I don’t take a lot of – to your point – my own pleasure and taking a position. It doesn’t bring me pleasure now. And I’ glad that you brought that up. It’s like, “No. It’s fucking sad that it is.” It’s just like I feel like I’ve been worn down by that kind of, “Oh, my God! Are we still being racist?” kind of argument. It wears on my soul. So that said, I think the cultural appropriation piece was my favorite, had humor. I think Wesley Morris went all around the world around this piece and it was lot of fun and it made me think I was king some of his arguments to some of my friends who were either shaking their heads vigorously, “No, I don’t believe that” or, “That’s interesting.” And the ones who were interested in it we could talk more about Tina Marie knowing her way around a pack of Newports because it’s so [laughter] racially charged and that, as I said on the podcast, no one’s taking Tina Marie away from me. And it led to me writing a piece about her that I’m still drafting around a bit how I heard her when I was a kid and the language around Tina which was like, “She sound black. Oh, you know she’s a black girl. She must be black.” That kind of thing. And the fidelity– not the fidelity but the seriousness in which people said some of these things and then the sort of joking elbow to the rib kind of thing. But the music was there. She sang well, and that’s largely what it was in my memory anyway. So I’m still probing my memory for it. But that was one of my favorites. I thought he did a good job of thinking about cultural appropriation. And I saw Little Richard last night talking about the fact that when Pat Boone did Tutti Frutti or [inaudible] he did much better at it. But that when someone says Elvis is the king of rock and roll, they say the self-proclaimed king of rock and roll for Little Richard. But Little Richard came first. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 24:17 | So it still resonates in my mind. Just this idea of cultural appropriation from somebody else’s point of view. |
| S. RODNEY: 24:24 | Right. I think that my– there were several that stuck with me, but one that I’m still mulling over because I still don’t know what to do with this idea and that’s actually from– I think it’s from the same essay by Wesley Mars. The one about music and appropriation. He has a passage here which reads, “But something about that desire warps and perverts its source, lampoons and cheapens it even in adoration.” I think he’s talking about the proliferation of black music. I want to make sure I– because I’m a stickler for this that I understand what the ‘it’ is when he says, “It also–” something about that– oh, what that desire is. I’m not sure. But put that aside for a moment. He says in the next sentence, loving black culture has never meant loving black people– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 25:31 | Black people. |
| S. RODNEY: 25:31 | –too. Yeah. And I wonder about that because honestly guys, I’m just going to on a limb here and say I don’t know that I love black people. I mean I don’t know that I love any group. It’s not like oh, I’m saving up my love for Jamaicans only [laughter]. I don’t know that I love a group anywhere on the planet. I think I can say I love black culture. I think that’s true. I mean there are definitely elements on “black culture” because drawing a line about what black culture is and ain’t is a whole other series of podcasts, but I think I can say that. But I don’t know that I can– I can’t say I love black people, and I’m black, y’all. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:21 | But also I think about what is the point of reference here? I mean thinking of– that’s a really lovely thing to say to put out in the universe and I would love for you to do that somewhere- |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:31 | That I don’t love black people? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:32 | No. No. [crosstalk] |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:32 | I don’t think [crosstalk] [laughter] |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:34 | Let me finish. |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:35 | I feel like that would be a very dangerous thing for me to put out in the universe. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:40 | But this is really powerful because say we were in black church and he said that, right? Environment means everything. [crosstalk]. But also you love your momma and you might love your dad with all that complicated stuff. But to say I love black people– so this is something that Toni Morrison and a few other people said during the ’60s and ’70s and some people said it a little bit further down the road because of space in terms of time that the whole idea of black is beautiful felt like something you wanted versus something you actually did, and that she never believed it. And she felt like she didn’t want people to be fooled by the real work that needed to be done. But that if a slogan could get you there, maybe. But was it important for you to love all black people? There weren’t the questions. The question was to just sort of rile people and get them. And I love the ’60s and ’70s. I’m a child of that. But I got what she meant. And if you can’t say what you just said in public anywhere then we don’t have a free society, we don’t have a lot of things that allow you to be this free thing that a lot of people say your ancestors were looking for you to be or wanting to be. So I think it’s very provocative to say that. Absolutely. |
| S. RODNEY: 27:56 | I hear that. |
| C.T. WEBB: 27:57 | Yeah. I’m with Seph on not loving groups. I don’t. I mean I suppose, if anything, I love groups in which there’s enfranchisement meaning that you can sort of elect yourself to a group. Like people that choose to be intellectuals, people that choose to be curious, people that choose to be artistic or choose to be generous. If we can draw these sort of ethereal lines around people, I’m with that. I am definitely not in any way shape or form a defender of group dynamics or groupthink or group identification that is imposed on you by birth or history. |
| S. RODNEY: 28:43 | But y’all know this, right? That what happens is when someone says something like that in public that a whole bunch of black people will pile on that person– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 28:54 | Shit, even some white people will pile on you [laughter]. |
| S. RODNEY: 28:56 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the problem with [crosstalk] |
| S. FULLWOOD: 28:58 | [crosstalk] black person. |
| S. RODNEY: 29:01 | [crosstalk] I love my people. I don’t know what’s wrong with you. That kind of thing. And I’m like okay, guilty as charged. Lance Harding, a good friend of mine who you both know, said it one day in this way, “I’m not a people person. I’m a person person.” And I feel that about myself that I’m equal to the task of treating human beings as if they are full human beings. That is what I believe in and I wake up every day ready to do pretty much. But I’m also not willing to– but I’m also at the same time not willing to lie to myself and say that I love these human beings that I encounter because I don’t. Because for me that’s really earned and that’s earned over time. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 30:01 | That’s so interesting. We should definitely have a podcast about love then. We’ve done it before but something around this idea of loving people. Because I do love people and I do love black people. And it doesn’t mean that I don’t love white people. It’s just that I think of systems and I think of– when I say I love black people I might be talking about something I’ve traced diasporic ally through– like the sucking of teeth. The sucking of teeth in the US means something than it does in the different parts of the Caribbean than it does in the different parts of Africa than it does in diasporic folks in France. But there is a throughline that I really enjoy. So they’re different kinds of things but you’re not taking anything away from me that culturally or – I was about to say, so-called white friends – my white friends and other people [laughter]. |
| C.T. WEBB: 30:49 | Wait. [crosstalk] |
| S. FULLWOOD: 30:50 | [crosstalk] trying to [crosstalk] |
| S. RODNEY: 30:51 | [crosstalk] so-called white. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 30:54 | I mean I feel like sometimes we lose things because we’re imposed by language and brackets, but I’m going to love who I want to love. And if I say I want to love black people and I love black people. I do. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like we should have this conversation a little bit more because it is quite beautiful to kind of be able what you want to say without feeling that someone’s going to pile on you or exclude you from a particular kind of group. That’s boring. I’ve been excluded from all groups [laughter]. Largely to some degree. So it started out with boy’s club then it was the homo club because I wasn’t “Hey, girl,” or whatever [laughter]. Then there are certain types of blacks that I find interesting in certain kinds of ways. I’m going to be me. I’m going to show up to be me and that’s my job. My job is to be a human. My job is not to be subject to anyone else’s politics or social stuff or their things. So that’s my job. And it’s a hard job but I think it’s still to me the best job actually. |
| C.T. WEBB: 31:56 | Yeah. I’m up for having a conversation about that because I think it’s a fairly capacious topic around this issue because I fall in tension between the two of you. My inclination is I do love people. I actually just really like humans and think we’re pretty cool. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 32:19 | I think so too. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 32:21 | And at the same time really don’t trust large groups of people. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 32:29 | I mean, yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 32:29 | I really do think– I think as soon as we offload our thinking, as soon as we distribute it amongst groups we become profoundly stupid. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 32:45 | Or we become fearful. We become fearful that someone’s going to come up in our house and rob us or throw a rock through our window. I mean I agree with you to some degree. I feel that the love thing might be the only thing animating the kind of work that I do or the work that I respect other people doing. Everything else is just a, “Oh, I’m going to die one day and I got to have everything [laughter].” And I’m like– I woke up this morning going, “Is that the apocalypse for a lot of people?” Because you’re getting older and you lose control and yeah [I don’t go?], “Wow! I’m just going to be a happy-ass old man. I am going to be one happy-ass old man because I’m not taking that shit with me. Fuck it.” |
| S. RODNEY: 33:26 | So I want to end my contribution to this conversation on this note [laughter]. I’m reminded of a friend I had in college, in undergrad, Carl. I think his name was Parker. He was and probably still is a poet. A funny but troubled young man at the time. And I would talk a lot about dating and how we look for– what we look for in a partner that we assume is the right fit for us. And he said that he would say to women that he’d meet in dating situations, “You know you’re going to die one day, right [laughter]? What are you doing?” And I kind of admired that. I’m like, “I kind of wish I had–“ |
| C.T. WEBB: 34:23 | I think like your friend Carl. |
| S. RODNEY: 34:28 | I wish I had– put it on the table. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 34:29 | Put it on the table. |
| S. RODNEY: 34:29 | You know you’re going to die, right? So what are you doing about that? And the 1619 Project in some ways is doing that. It’s saying to all its readers, “You know you’re going to die, right? What are you doing about that? You know that this is the original sin of the US, right? What are you doing about that?” And that’s the clarity that I want to live in. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 34:50 | Absolutely. |
| C.T. WEBB: 34:50 | I’m sure Carl got laid a lot, yeah [laughter]? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 34:54 | Right. I’m going to die. So I should have sex with you [laughter]. |
| S. RODNEY: 35:00 | Boo. Boo. |
| C.T. WEBB: 35:03 | So all right, my friends. Thank you as always for the conversation and we’ll be speaking next week about humor. So it’s a good segue. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 35:10 | Yeah. Woohoo! |
| C.T. WEBB: 35:11 | Anyway. Take care. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 35:13 | Cheers. |
| S. RODNEY: 35:14 | Bye. [music] |
References
**No references for Podcast 0096**