0071 | May 13, 2019

2020 Democrats:
Warren, and the Rest

The 2020 Democratic field is crowded, but there are a few standouts. Assessing the field, the hosts make the argument that Elizabeth Warren stands far out ahead of the rest in terms of preparedness. But is she electable?

C.T. WEBB: 00:18	[music] Good afternoon, good morning, or good evening, and welcome to The American Age podcast. This is C. Travis Webb, editor of The American Age.
S. FULLWOOD: 00:26	Hi. This is Steven G. Fullwood, and I am the co-founder of the Nomadic Archivists Project. And I’m coming to you from Harlem– sunny but cloudy Harlem.
S. RODNEY: 00:35	And I’m Seph Rodney. I am an editor at Hyperallergic, the arts blog, and a part-time faculty member at Parsons School of Design.
C.T. WEBB: 00:47	It actually is kind of overcast today in Southern California, too. We’ve had a fairly long, for us, what we’d qualify as a winter, certainly not a New York winter, but. This is to remind our listeners that we practice a form of what we like to call intellectual intimacy, which is giving each other the space and time to figure out things out loud and together. And so today and for the next couple of weeks– we probably won’t spend too much time on it, but we wanted to check in. We’ve taken some other topics. We wanted to kind of check in on the state of affairs on the ground. And so we’re going to talk about the 2020 Democratic lineup. I thought for our first one, we’d just kind of get into it and– sort of initial thoughts. Maybe go through the list of candidates. I actually have one pulled up here on my screen. I thought I could [laughter] read through them. Of course, that will probably take the entire podcast if I do that, but [laughter]. And then we can zero in on maybe a couple of specific topics in the next couple of podcasts.
S. RODNEY: 01:46	Does it make sense this time to just talk about likes and dislikes?
C.T. WEBB: 01:52	Sure. Sure. Okay. I’m fine with that [crosstalk].
S. RODNEY: 01:53	The ones who are the forerunners and the ones that are just absolutely revolting [laughter].
S. FULLWOOD: 02:02	Okay [laughter]. I also want to do predictions.
S. RODNEY: 02:05	Okay. Good.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:05	Who do you think will get [crosstalk]–?
C.T. WEBB: 02:05	Ah. Okay. All right.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:06	–so maybe we can–
C.T. WEBB: 02:07	Okay.
S. RODNEY: 02:07	Okay.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:07	–revisit it later on.
S. RODNEY: 02:08	Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:08	Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 02:08	I love that. I love that. Yes. Let’s do it.
C.T. WEBB: 02:11	Okay. So I’m going to machine-gun off the last– New York Times has a list of who’s running currently. There are 21 Democrats running. And I’m going to–
S. RODNEY: 02:19	Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 02:19	–machine-gun off the last names.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:21	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 02:21	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 02:22	Bennet, Biden, Booker, Buttig– Buttigay?
S. FULLWOOD: 02:24	Buttigieg. Buttigieg.
S. RODNEY: 02:25	Buttigieg.
C.T. WEBB: 02:26	Butti– Buttigieg. Thank you.
S. RODNEY: 02:28	Uh-huh.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:28	Buttigieg, yes.
S. RODNEY: 02:28	Uh-huh.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:29	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 02:29	Castro, Delaney, Gabbard, Gillibrand, Harris, Hickenlooper, Inslee, Klobuchar, Messam, Moulton, O’Rourke, Ryan, Sanders, Swalwell, Warren, Williamson, and Yang. Abrams, Bullock, de Blasio, and Schultz all might run. Anyway, so there you go. That’s the Democratic field. 21 official candidates.
S. RODNEY: 02:51	Oh, Jesus.
S. FULLWOOD: 02:51	Did you mention Mike Gravel?
C.T. WEBB: 02:54	That is not on their list, which was published on May 2nd, so. Did he enter the race in the last few days?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:01	No. He actually came in April 2nd 2019. He–
C.T. WEBB: 03:04	Okay, so he–
S. FULLWOOD: 03:06	Senator from Alaska. And so this is actually from a– what is it from? It is from Politico.
C.T. WEBB: 03:13	And what’s his last name?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:14	Gravel. He’s the former senator from Alaska.
S. RODNEY: 03:19	[Anyone else?]?
C.T. WEBB: 03:19	And he’s running as a–
S. FULLWOOD: 03:21	A Democrat.
C.T. WEBB: 03:21	–as a Democrat?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:22	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 03:23	Oh. That’s so weird. So The New York Times is wrong, apparently, because he is not on their list.
S. RODNEY: 03:27	Huh, they’re wrong [laughter]?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:28	Yeah. Surprise.
S. RODNEY: 03:32	They can’t be–
C.T. WEBB: 03:32	Yeah. Grabble is not on the list.
S. FULLWOOD: 03:35	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 03:36	Steven, just so I know, how do you spell his name?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:40	Just like pebbles. Gravel.
S. RODNEY: 03:43	Oh, right. So G-R-A-V-E-L. Okay.
S. FULLWOOD: 03:45	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 03:46	Mike.
S. FULLWOOD: 03:46	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 03:49	Oh, Lord Jesus. Ah [laughter].
C.T. WEBB: 03:51	So what do you guys think?
S. FULLWOOD: 03:53	That’s a mighty, mighty list.
S. RODNEY: 03:54	I think part of what– and this is, I’m really getting from Twitter. But part of what’s happening with the Democratic field is that people have jumped in because they have something to say, and they know that this is the largest megaphone– one of the largest megaphones in existence which will amplify their voices. The thing is, I’m not sure that– but I say this about a lot of people and a lot of things. I’m not sure that most of them are worth listening to. Honestly. There are only a handful who have said anything that has been impressive to me, in terms of moral candor, insightfulness, and bravery, frankly. Just having the guts– the sense that what they say is not just about political expedience, but is about who they are, and about meeting the needs of people that are not nearly the loudest and most raucous voices.
S. FULLWOOD: 05:05	Do you think it’s too early in the campaign or this particular process to really know what people are about? Know what their platforms are or what their personality–? Because just saying who you like and who you don’t like, I think is really important because it can help people kind of think through their own platforms, their own issues, their own media savviness, where they’re willing to go not just look at The New York Times or CNN or whatever, but really kind of do some digging.
S. RODNEY: 05:39	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 05:39	Mm-hmm.
S. FULLWOOD: 05:40	Yeah. So I was kind of curious about is it too early to do this work? Or what does it serve to make these kinds of predictions?
S. RODNEY: 05:48	Good question.
C.T. WEBB: 05:48	You mean as a constituent? As a–
S. FULLWOOD: 05:50	Yeah. Absolutely.
C.T. WEBB: 05:50	–as a voter?
S. FULLWOOD: 05:51	Absolutely a constituent.
C.T. WEBB: 05:51	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 05:52	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 05:53	Yeah. No, I don’t think it’s too– I mean, I think it’s probably too early to have– I mean, you can say who isn’t going to get the nomination, right? But you can’t really say who is going to get the nomination at this point.
S. RODNEY: 06:08	Well, let’s talk a little bit about– let’s do Steven’s thing and talk a little bit about the bright, shiny stars, the ones who have gotten a lot of media attention.
S. FULLWOOD: 06:18	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 06:18	Beto O’Rourke, Peter Buttigieg, Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris– which is how we’re supposed to pronounce her name.
S. FULLWOOD: 06:28	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 06:29	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 06:30	And–
S. FULLWOOD: 06:32	Joe Biden.
S. RODNEY: 06:33	Yeah. No, I said Biden, I think, but–
S. FULLWOOD: 06:34	Oh, you did?
C.T. WEBB: 06:35	You did.
S. RODNEY: 06:35	I think so. And–
C.T. WEBB: 06:36	Sanders. Sanders.
S. RODNEY: 06:38	Right. Bernie Sanders, of course. And there’s–
C.T. WEBB: 06:41	Booker? Did you say Booker?
S. RODNEY: 06:42	Is Booker getting a lot of– well, okay. Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 06:44	[inaudible]
S. RODNEY: 06:45	Yeah, somewhat. Somewhat. And Amy– how do you say her last name? Klobukah?
C.T. WEBB: 06:49	Klobuchar.
S. FULLWOOD: 06:51	Klobuchar. Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 06:51	Klobuchar. Klobuchar. Yeah. So those are pretty much the ones that are most prominent in the discussion. I would hazard a guess to say that this time next year, the only ones who will be left standing will be Harris, Biden, Sanders, and Warren.
S. FULLWOOD: 07:17	Yep. I agree with you. Those are my three– I actually didn’t count Kamala. I didn’t count her. I actually just have Biden, Sanders, and Warren.
S. RODNEY: 07:27	I don’t think that– I don’t think that Buttigieg is going to make it because–
C.T. WEBB: 07:30	No [laughter]. No.
S. RODNEY: 07:31	–I think that our homophobia’s way too entrenched.
C.T. WEBB: 07:34	I don’t think that– I mean, I think that is true, but I think he’s also not a very serious candidate.
S. RODNEY: 07:41	Thank you.
S. FULLWOOD: 07:42	Agreed. Agreed.
S. RODNEY: 07:42	Thank you. Agreed completely. Some of the stuff he’s said, I– just been jaw-droppingly dumb.
C.T. WEBB: 07:48	Yeah, I know. He’s just–
S. RODNEY: 07:49	It’s awful.
S. FULLWOOD: 07:50	Well, that’s what’s kind of making him shiny, though, is the gay thing because people–
C.T. WEBB: 07:53	Right.
S. FULLWOOD: 07:54	So this is what the ’70s gay, LGBTQ movement, essentially, was arguing against, the more radical parts of it. Someone like Buttigieg being able to sort of walk on the shoulders of the people who did some really important work around making queerness a little more mainstream, do you know? But Buttigieg was online the other day talking about there was an article in The New York Times about his– how do they call [laughter]– what did they call it? It was really funny. They called it How Pete Buttigieg’s Meaningless Erudition Makes Him the “Smart” Candidate. And so I received some backlash because people were like, “Well, why are you wasting keystrokes on this guy? Or why is The New York Times doing it when we have to present a united front, or we have to– we don’t want divisiveness,” and I’m thinking, “That doesn’t make any sense to me.” So stop–
C.T. WEBB: 08:48	It doesn’t. And you have to publish newspapers everyday. The reason that and [laughter]– the TV is on 24 hours a day. The reason that there are 21 candidates and they get as much [inaudible] is because the news cycle is endless and we need things to talk about. It’s that or, I don’t know, maybe if there’s an email scandal, that’ll take up some of the bandwidth, but. That’s why he’s getting as much attention as he’s getting. I mean, I totally agree with you that– I mean, there’s the homosexual thing, obviously, lets people feel good about how, “See, I can entertain the idea of a gay president [laughter].” Look how far we’ve come. And then of course the educated liberals really like, “Oh, he speaks French fluently,” and blah blah blah blah blah.
S. RODNEY: 09:36	Oh, and he taught himself to speak, what was it? Norweigian? Icelandic?
S. FULLWOOD: 09:39	Norweigian.
C.T. WEBB: 09:40	[crosstalk].
S. RODNEY: 09:40	Norweigian because he loved this particular author. Now, let’s be fair. I am impressed by that. Just at the level of–
S. FULLWOOD: 09:47	Ah–
S. RODNEY: 09:48	–cognitive ability– yes, and I know you’re–
S. FULLWOOD: 09:49	Oh yeah.
S. RODNEY: 09:49	–saying that, too. Hell yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 09:51	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 09:51	Yes.
S. RODNEY: 09:51	We all are. We all are. Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 09:53	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 09:53	Yes.
S. RODNEY: 09:53	But then when he says stuff like– what did he say about the police? Not second-guessing the police or something like that, or when it comes to black men or black people being under– basically, at the mercy of– God, I’m hoping that one of you guys can rescue me, and apparently that’s not going to happen. I’m just going to [crosstalk]–
C.T. WEBB: 10:21	I would if I could. I actually don’t know what he said.
S. FULLWOOD: 10:22	Bated breath. I’m just waiting.
S. RODNEY: 10:24	Yeah, I don’t–
C.T. WEBB: 10:25	Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 10:25	And this is the thing is that hardly– I’m speaking from position of only having scanned these stories about the various candidates. The only person I’ve really gone in on is the person I most believe in, and that’s Elizabeth Warren, so.
C.T. WEBB: 10:40	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 10:40	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 10:40	So, I’m sorry. I should back out and just say, “What I’ve heard–“
S. FULLWOOD: 10:44	Okay.
S. RODNEY: 10:45	“–and not anecdotally, but what I’ve read, but have not read in-depth about, tells me that Buttigieg policies generally are quite middle-of-the-road and not particularly empathetic.”
C.T. WEBB: 11:01	No. I would’ve helped you out if I could have. [inaudible] been my engagement with most of the candidates as well is just sort of cursory and scan the headlines, read a couple paragraphs. Around what he said, I know he kind of gave a very glossed– at a CNN town meeting, gave a very glossed response to policy proposals. Well, it’s early in the campaign [crosstalk] this time to flesh those out or whatever. As if you can– I mean, that’s like Trump territory, as far as, “Well, I’ll figure it out.” You’re going to figure out a coherent foreign policy in the next 12 months? You’re going to figure out a coherent response to income inequality [laughter] in the next 12 months? Come on, man. Have some respect for what you’re attempting to do, what you’re trying to do. Prepare.
S. FULLWOOD: 11:55	Prepare.
C.T. WEBB: 11:55	Show up. Take some notes.
S. FULLWOOD: 11:56	Be a Warren. Be Elizabeth Warren–
C.T. WEBB: 11:57	Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughter].
S. FULLWOOD: 11:58	–who’s given it some thoughts, who– I love–
S. RODNEY: 12:01	Thinking.
S. FULLWOOD: 12:01	–I think it was Seth Meyers said that she was on the plane reading the [laughter] Mueller Report, and it’s like– she’s the person you don’t want to sit next to on a red eye from somewhere because she’s doing [laughter] her work. She’s doing the work. And also, when I think about the line that the candidates are trying to walk, and I think, unsuccessfully– is they don’t want to have to walk back something that they said earlier in the campaign, perhaps. I think that’s another sort of thing that they’re kind of weighing in. I feel like I want some– I want that definitiveness in a candidate, and so far, it’s Elizabeth Warren. It’s Bernie Sanders. It’s not Joe Biden. Kamala– Kamala, I’m still kind of weighing. I want to read more about her because I want to get more from her mouth. Right now, she’s a good prosecutor, but I don’t see her as being presidential. But then I have to wrestle with what that means for myself. Do you know–?
S. RODNEY: 12:55	Yeah–
C.T. WEBB: 12:55	Yeah, that’s true.
S. RODNEY: 12:56	–now that sets off red flags for me when you say that, Steven.
S. FULLWOOD: 12:58	Me too. My red flags are all alit [laughter] so.
C.T. WEBB: 13:04	They’re flapping in the wind.
S. RODNEY: 13:05	I know. He’s going to be like a regatta [laughter].
C.T. WEBB: 13:07	So I was going to say, I was a little disappointed that– I mean, I think we’re all pretty bullish on Elizabeth Warren. I love Elizabeth Warren. I really do.
S. RODNEY: 13:15	Me too. Me too.
C.T. WEBB: 13:15	I don’t think she’s going to get the nomination–
S. RODNEY: 13:18	I agree.
C.T. WEBB: 13:19	–but I am very hopeful that I’m wrong, and I don’t mean in that like, “Well, I hope I–” I mean, I really legitimately hope that I’m misreading that. I love her. I think she’s fantastic. And there’s things to criticize about her, of course. The Native American stuff is problematic, for sure. And Kamala Harris, I don’t think much of her yet. And that was based on my just very, very, very first impression of her, though I did vote for her in California, of course. My first impression of one of the early hearings around the Trump stuff – I forget which one it was. He was being questioned – I wasn’t in love with her posture during the questioning. It was very apparent that she was playing to the cameras and wasn’t really trying to probe. Which is probably unfair, right? She was probably already at that point mulling a presidential run and so needed to be cognizant of that, may have been nervous. I mean, it’s a national stage, so. It’s not fair to– but that is where my initial impression of her came from, was that initial round of questioning. Might have been around Kavanaugh, actually. I think that’s what it was. I think it was that [crosstalk].
S. RODNEY: 14:44	Okay. So let’s do this, just to play the game out. Let’s just say, for each of us, what we think the ticket will be. Democratic ticket in 2020. President and Vice President. Go.
C.T. WEBB: 15:00	Steven, you want to go?
S. FULLWOOD: 15:00	Oh. I’m so disappointed. I don’t feel [laughter]. Okay–
S. RODNEY: 15:03	I’m with you. I feel you.
S. FULLWOOD: 15:04	I don’t want to be– I don’t think it’s a fool’s errand, but I’ve been kind of flip-flopping. I’ll say Bernie. But I think it’s a hard road for Bernie. I think it’s a hard road for Elizabeth. If we had to vote tomorrow, it would most likely be Biden. It’d be Biden and somebody else. I don’t think he would pull from the Democratic Presidential candidates. I think he’d pull somebody else, possibly a black man.
C.T. WEBB: 15:24	Yeah. I would say Biden and some other man or woman I am unaware of at this point [laughter] someone from a battleground state– Florida, one of them are going to be–
S. RODNEY: 15:40	Florida or Ohio, yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 15:42	Or the three–
S. RODNEY: 15:42	Or Indiana.
C.T. WEBB: 15:43	–yeah. The three that were lost in the last election that flipped to Trump after Obama. I would say that would be my guess.
S. RODNEY: 15:51	So I’m going to just be contrarian and go against what the room is– very sort of, what’s the word I’m looking for? I mean, what you guys have both predicted makes complete sense. But just for the hell of it, I’m going to say it’s going to be Bernie and Elizabeth Warren.
S. FULLWOOD: 16:17	I would love that.
S. RODNEY: 16:18	President, Vice President.
C.T. WEBB: 16:20	I don’t love Bernie.
S. RODNEY: 16:21	I don’t love him, either.
C.T. WEBB: 16:22	I don’t feel the Bern. I felt [laughter]– and here’s the– I’ve never liked Bernie Sanders, not in a strong way, not in a, “I can’t stand him,” kind of way. Definitely not that at all, right. But I’ve never really warmed up to him, and then–
S. FULLWOOD: 16:41	Could you–
C.T. WEBB: 16:41	–in particular– oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead. Steven, go ahead.
S. FULLWOOD: 16:43	I was going to say, could you talk about personality? Could you define–?
S. RODNEY: 16:47	Yes. Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 16:47	I think you were about to go into it. I apologize.
S. RODNEY: 16:49	Yes.
C.T. WEBB: 16:49	Yeah. Yeah. To me, he is an idealist, and I don’t think idealists make good Presidents. And I think idealists fit very well into a number of other places that are critical to the culture, right– religious leaders, moral leaders. It’s very important. As a President, I think it’s a handicap, and I don’t want idealists that close to bullets and missiles. I don’t like that idea.
S. FULLWOOD: 17:25	Can you name an idealistic president from the past, as a point of reference?
C.T. WEBB: 17:37	Yeah. Thomas Jefferson.
S. FULLWOOD: 17:39	Ah. Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 17:40	So I think was very clearly a– I mean, even though he compromised with himself and completed the Louisiana Purchase, but Thomas Jefferson would be an example of an idealist that I think his record is mixed as a president. I mean, certainly, for his moral failures alone– Ronald Reagan was an idealist.
S. RODNEY: 18:02	Yeah. Yeah, he was.
C.T. WEBB: 18:04	Very much. Very much. And–
S. RODNEY: 18:05	He was, but he was also a bit of a fool.
C.T. WEBB: 18:08	Yeah– oh, later though. So here–
S. RODNEY: 18:10	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 18:10	A historian I very much respect had a complete flip on his opinion of Reagan, after doing his biography. Apparently Reagan was a very deep reader of Emerson and–
S. FULLWOOD: 18:22	Interesting.
C.T. WEBB: 18:26	–had journaled extensively about him throughout his life, and kind of the American idea. So I don’t want to go too far – we can talk about Reagan in some other point – but so idealists so I can answer the question more handily, Steven, if we step outside of–
S. FULLWOOD: 18:47	Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 18:47	–American presidents.
S. FULLWOOD: 18:48	Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 18:49	In idealist political leaders are frightening, right. When I think of idealist, I think of Stalin. I think of Hitler. I think of– shoot. The name’s escaping me. It’ll come to me.
S. RODNEY: 19:05	[Nama Duta?]–
C.T. WEBB: 19:06	Pol–
S. RODNEY: 19:06	[Nama Duta?].
C.T. WEBB: 19:07	Pol– ah, no. Pol Pot–
S. RODNEY: 19:09	Oh.
C.T. WEBB: 19:09	–in Cambodia. I mean, these [crosstalk]–
S. FULLWOOD: 19:11	But is there any space for an imaginative way of sort of approaching politics at this point? Do we always have to sort of rely on people that we know follow certain party lines and certain kinds of tropes that we’re familiar with? Because I think Obama– he kind of ran on a platform of change, but he was really solidly a politician, do you know?
S. RODNEY: 19:32	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 19:32	Given his record, so–
C.T. WEBB: 19:33	Yeah. That’s why I liked him [laughter].
S. FULLWOOD: 19:35	Right. So he kind of did a switcheroo for some people. But with Bernie, I’ve heard that criticism a lot, and I’m curious about what real transformation of the office looks like– strengthening the Justice Department, strengthening the Executive Office, and the Congress, and really be useful to the people and not just three of those people. Do you know what I mean? So–
C.T. WEBB: 20:00	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
S. FULLWOOD: 20:01	–Bernie’s enthusiasm excites me. Some of his policies excite me. I get what you’re saying, but I’m always kind of like, “Well, what could he do when he gets in the office?” Will he just have people stonewall, have them the entire time? What could he do?
C.T. WEBB: 20:13	Yeah. I mean, this is– I mean, your wonder at that is something that Charles Blow wrote about a week or two ago that– basically saying of course the goal is to defeat Trump in 2020, but he didn’t like the cautiousness of the Democratic establishment, and thought this is perhaps an opportunity– he didn’t say perhaps. This is an opportunity to kind of blow the doors open and see what we can really do to fight income inequality and some of the more intractable problems in the country. Your argument, Steven, and Blow’s argument softens me. I do think, “Okay. Maybe.” It softens me on the possibility of what– but for me, that candidate is Warren then. For me, Warren is–
S. FULLWOOD: 21:05	Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 21:06	Warren has a plan. The reason, I mean–
S. RODNEY: 21:10	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 21:11	–I think that’s literally a T-shirt now. Warren has a plan for that [laughter]. I think that–
S. RODNEY: 21:14	She’s got a plan for it, yes.
C.T. WEBB: 21:15	I think they’re going– yeah. I think they’re actually producing those T-shirts.
S. FULLWOOD: 21:19	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 21:19	I really didn’t– and this reinforced by opinion of Sanders. I really did not like his answer, which– and I’ll explain the reason I didn’t like it, for two specific, independent reasons. When they asked him about the amount of money he had made on his book– or, they didn’t ask him about the book. His answer was that his book did very well. And how much he made, like a million dollars last year, whatever it was. A, he seemed unprepared for the question. That concerns me. And B, his answer sucked. So, A–
S. FULLWOOD: 21:52	Is this the FOX– is this the FOX interview?
C.T. WEBB: 21:54	Yes. Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 21:55	Okay. Tell me more.
C.T. WEBB: 21:56	A– yeah. A, how the hell did you not see that question coming?
S. RODNEY: 22:00	Exactly.
C.T. WEBB: 22:00	To me, an ideologue. You are too in the sort of the idealisms and the principles that you believe make you righteous, that you can’t even–
S. RODNEY: 22:13	Whoa. Well said. Okay.
C.T. WEBB: 22:13	–see the obvious chess moves that are coming your way.
S. RODNEY: 22:18	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:18	How did you not see that question?
S. RODNEY: 22:20	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:21	And, I mean, there were literally news stories about his tax returns–
S. RODNEY: 22:26	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:27	–and the problem that that was going to pose–
S. RODNEY: 22:29	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:29	–a few days before the–
S. RODNEY: 22:31	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:31	Who are you surrounded by–
S. RODNEY: 22:33	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 22:33	–that this question was not thrown at you 50 different ways?
S. RODNEY: 22:37	Right.
S. FULLWOOD: 22:37	Do you see that that’s hubris on his part? Or just–
C.T. WEBB: 22:40	Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 22:40	–straight– Yeah. I thought so. Okay. I can get behind that because I agree with you.
C.T. WEBB: 22:43	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 22:44	Yeah. He definitely– these candidates should be ready for the simple– not even the deeper questions, the simple ones.
C.T. WEBB: 22:50	No. Yeah. And then secondly, I just didn’t like his answer. He wants to talk about sort of– dismantling is probably too strong, but his– to me, his notion of socialism is pretty ill-formed, right. He said, “Well socialism, to me, is health care and retire–” No. No. That’s definitely not it, right [laughter]. I mean, you can definitely have– that is not a socialist– that is a capitalist system with socialist elements, okay? I’m down with that, but that– anyway. So, I have very specific reasons why I’m not in love with Sanders.
S. RODNEY: 23:31	So I want to add to that that one of the problems with Sanders, which I think people have had a hard time addressing– and by people, I mean pundits or people who I follow on Twitter and other social media platforms. Pundits isn’t the right word, but– the people who are working in and around media, one of the problems they have with Bernie Sanders, which is not necessarily his fault but says something about precisely that, the nature of his candidacy and the nature of his rhetoric, which is founded in that kind of idealism, is his followers, the Bernie Bros. There was some poll I saw the other day– and, again, I apologize for not having hard numbers because of my kind of cursory reading, but it was something like 25% of people who averred allegiance to Sanders said that, if Sanders failed to become the candidate, that they would vote for Trump. So–
C.T. WEBB: 24:36	I know. I’ve read similar things.
S. RODNEY: 24:36	–that, I find extremely–
C.T. WEBB: 24:39	Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 24:39	–disturbing. What is that about? That if you can’t have your strongman, you’re going to have another strongman who does– what? I don’t–
C.T. WEBB: 24:50	Or not vote is the other one, too.
S. FULLWOOD: 24:52	That’s exactly what I was going to say. Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 24:53	Revolting. This is so revolting to me. It’s disgusting.
C.T. WEBB: 24:58	Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 24:58	It’s like, what is wrong with you?
C.T. WEBB: 25:00	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 25:00	I think that you guys have touched on something really important about ideologues. So if you can’t have what you want, then you will just–
S. RODNEY: 25:09	You’ll blow it out.
S. FULLWOOD: 25:09	You’ll just throw it out.
S. RODNEY: 25:10	Right.
S. FULLWOOD: 25:10	You’ll just blow it up. I mean, we’re watching Trump try to blow up the American government right now [laughter]. We’re watching him try to burn down the House. So you would think that the people who were following their candidates would not want that– would look for that kind of– what’s in their personality or in their politic or their policy or something they’ve done in the past? What are red flags, essentially? Do you know? And exhaust me. I remember hearing that last election that they weren’t going to vote for Hillary because Bernie didn’t get the nomination, and I was like, “I don’t understand. What do you want then?” I mean, you don’t– that’s not smart. That’s just not smart. That’s the kindest way to put it.
C.T. WEBB: 25:54	In the most generous– yeah [laughter]. I was going to say, that is the kindest way to describe it.
S. RODNEY: 25:57	Well, I mean–
S. FULLWOOD: 25:58	But I also don’t know what your politics are. If your politics are all-or-nothing, then–
C.T. WEBB: 26:02	That’s right.
S. FULLWOOD: 26:03	–it makes perfect sense. Do you know? But–
C.T. WEBB: 26:04	Their politics are resentment is what their politics are.
S. RODNEY: 26:06	Precisely.
S. FULLWOOD: 26:06	Thank you. Thank you.
S. RODNEY: 26:07	And I think the word we’re also looking for is nihilist. Their politics are about nihilism. If you can’t have the house that you want, you want to see it burnt to the ground so that nobody can live in it, essentially, right? That’s madness to me. So yes. Yeah. Okay. The prediction part is good. Let’s talk about the candidates we really hate and really love. So [laughter] I’m just– if I may go first, if you don’t mind.
S. FULLWOOD: 26:39	Please.
C.T. WEBB: 26:39	Please. No, please. Go for it.
S. FULLWOOD: 26:40	Please [laughter].
S. RODNEY: 26:40	So we’ve all professed love for Elizabeth Warren, but I want to run through this list really quickly. This is the list from The Cut. A Guide to Elizabeth Warren’s (Many) 2020 Policy Proposals, by Lisa Ryan–
S. FULLWOOD: 26:55	Whew.
S. RODNEY: 26:55	–which was published April 25th. So this is not a complete, comprehensive list, but these are the highlights. Higher education reform. Right? So she wants to, basically, to invest an additional $100 billion in Pell Grants. All right?
S. FULLWOOD: 27:11	Mm-hmm.
S. RODNEY: 27:11	Universal childcare. 700 billion universal childcare policy, which would require that no family spends more than 7% of his income on quality supervision of their minors. Ultra-Millionaire Tax.
S. FULLWOOD: 27:26	Reform or–?
S. RODNEY: 27:27	Tax. Right.
C.T. WEBB: 27:27	Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 27:28	So, basically, tax on the ultra-rich– 400 richest Americans. Basically, it would be a tax that applies to households with a network– net worth, excuse me, of $50 million or more. The tax includes paying an annual 2% tax on every dollar over 50 million, and a 3% tax on every dollar over 1 billion. And, frankly, you know what? At that level of net worth, you’re not going to miss it. You give away to–
S. FULLWOOD: 27:56	Oh, come on now.
S. RODNEY: 27:58	No, no, no–
S. FULLWOOD: 27:59	[crosstalk]–
S. RODNEY: 27:59	No, no, no. No, if you are [laughter]– if you are staunchly against this kind of tax, I don’t understand what you want from life. That makes no–
S. FULLWOOD: 28:11	You want everything.
S. RODNEY: 28:12	–sense. Well, okay.
C.T. WEBB: 28:13	Yeah. That’s right.
S. RODNEY: 28:14	All right. Okay. All right.
C.T. WEBB: 28:15	So here’s the okay if I can just add–
S. RODNEY: 28:17	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 28:17	–really quickly to that? So these people– and I feel like we have to be okay with that on the Left. These people are just our enemies. I don’t mean enemies like we want to see them gutted and bleeding in the streets. I don’t mean like that. I don’t feel that way about it but these are the people that must be defeated, in the cultural and social arena. They are not going to– and now, there are some of the ultra-wealthy who will–
S. FULLWOOD: 28:42	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 28:42	–see the efficacy of paying more into the system–
S. RODNEY: 28:45	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 28:46	–in order to ensure social stability.
S. RODNEY: 28:47	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 28:48	Those–
S. FULLWOOD: 28:48	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 28:48	–that do not and cannot see that must be defeated.
S. RODNEY: 28:52	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 28:52	They just have to be defeated. They have to–
S. FULLWOOD: 28:53	Agree.
C.T. WEBB: 28:54	They’re not going to be reasoned– you’re not going to sit down and like, “Okay. I get it–“
S. FULLWOOD: 28:57	There’s no two sides.
S. RODNEY: 28:58	Agreed.
C.T. WEBB: 28:59	That’s right. And they just have to be defeated. So–
S. RODNEY: 29:01	Agreed–
C.T. WEBB: 29:01	I’m sorry. Go ahead. Sorry [inaudible].
S. RODNEY: 29:02	Yeah. Real Corporate Profits Tax, which is a tax on over $100 million in profits, a 7% tax on that. Making housing more affordable– I won’t read the details because– and protecting public lands. And decreasing maternal mortality rates for black women, giving hospitals incentives to raise the– the mortality rate is 40 per 100,000 for black women, and it’s 12 in 100,000 for white women. I find her policies coherent, well-reasoned, and critical. So she–
C.T. WEBB: 29:49	And this is– remind us of who this was again, please.
S. RODNEY: 29:53	Yes, this is Elizabeth Warren [laughter] all right? And–
C.T. WEBB: 29:54	Because it was four minutes and five minutes ago that we started on the list [laughter], which is exactly why I love her. It took you– and this– you were doing a cursory pass–
S. RODNEY: 30:05	Right.
C.T. WEBB: 30:05	–on her policies and it took five minutes to get through–
S. FULLWOOD: 30:09	Just a small amount.
C.T. WEBB: 30:10	That’s who I want– that’s who I would like–
S. RODNEY: 30:11	Exactly.
C.T. WEBB: 30:12	–to be running the country.
S. RODNEY: 30:13	Exactly.
C.T. WEBB: 30:14	This is good.
S. RODNEY: 30:15	That person, that intellect. And then the person I most dislike on the Democratic side– that’s hard [laughter]. I guess I really dislike– there’s a bunch of them that can be lumped in together with Hickenlooper, basically, who’s a kind of Republican-lite. They just say stuff like, “Well, I want to be a uniter, not a divider. States should be able to decide on blah, blah, blah. And I don’t want to go as far as universal childcare, and I don’t want to go as far as Medicare [laughter]. I just kind of want to keep the trains running on time. There are people going to their death, but eh, the trains, they got to run on time.” That. I don’t like any of those people.
C.T. WEBB: 31:03	Okay, so we’ve got one or two minutes. So, Steven, who are your–?
S. RODNEY: 31:06	Yeah, I’m sorry. I apologize.
C.T. WEBB: 31:07	No, no, no, no, no, no. It’s all right. It’s all right.
S. FULLWOOD: 31:09	I’ll make mine very quick. And so, Elizabeth Warren– for the reasons that you guys have talked about her, I will say that. I don’t really hate anybody, in terms of the Democratic– because they’re so– some of their stuff is just so vague. “I just want to bring people together. Unity.” Blah, blah, blah. I was looking at a few pages, but the person that I find that– I don’t dislike her, I just don’t think that she should be running for president. Marianne Williamson because she’s– I want her in other areas, kind of like people might want Kamala Harris to be a prosecutor, or maybe stay in the Senate. I want her somewhere else. I feel like this is– no. Unless–
S. RODNEY: 31:43	This is not for you.
S. FULLWOOD: 31:44	No.
S. RODNEY: 31:44	Yeah.
S. FULLWOOD: 31:44	No, not at all.
S. RODNEY: 31:45	Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 31:46	So–
S. RODNEY: 31:46	Agree.
C.T. WEBB: 31:46	–I actually appreciated your spending time with Warren, Seph, because that’s– so I’m going to be with the two of you on that. Warren would be my number one candidate. The one I– hate is too strong, but strongly dislike him and the people that are excited about him? Beto O’Rourke.
S. RODNEY: 32:05	Yes.
S. FULLWOOD: 32:05	Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 32:05	I just– nope. No, thank you. I [crosstalk].
S. FULLWOOD: 32:10	No jumping on tables? No jumping on tables for you?
C.T. WEBB: 32:13	What [laughter]?
S. FULLWOOD: 32:14	Jumping on tables. [crosstalk].
C.T. WEBB: 32:15	One of the most [laughter]– one of the most indicative aspects of his candidacy was that people who were close to his campaign, who had worked on his campaign, and who liked him said in interviews, several of them on the record, that they hope he doesn’t run because he’s not ready. He is not ready. Now this is someone that is–
S. RODNEY: 32:37	[crosstalk].
C.T. WEBB: 32:37	–not ready to be President of the United States.
S. RODNEY: 32:40	You know what’s interesting is that none of said that we really hate Joe Biden, though I suspect we do dislike his candidacy a lot.
C.T. WEBB: 32:48	Well, here. So why don’t we pick up with Joe Biden next, since he is the presumptive–
S. FULLWOOD: 32:53	Yes. Yeah.
S. RODNEY: 32:54	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 32:55	Yeah, I think he is the presumptive– he’s the person to beat–
S. RODNEY: 32:58	Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 32:58	–right?
S. FULLWOOD: 32:58	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
C.T. WEBB: 32:59	I don’t want to say presumptive nominee because that’s too strong, but–
S. FULLWOOD: 33:01	Argh.
C.T. WEBB: 33:02	–he is the person to beat right now.
S. RODNEY: 33:03	Yeah.
C.T. WEBB: 33:07	So, why don’t we [inaudible] it. There’s a lot to unpack about Joe Biden and just his history, so why don’t we save that for our next conversation?
S. FULLWOOD: 33:10	Sounds good.
S. RODNEY: 33:10	Sounds good.
S. FULLWOOD: 33:11	All right. Thank you.
C.T. WEBB: 33:12	Thanks very much.
S. FULLWOOD: 33:13	All right. [music]

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2020 Democrats: Warren, and the Rest

0071 | May 13, 2019

2020 Democrats:
Warren, and the Rest

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